This article/interview was first published in Flashback News Agency (FNA 137), January 2001.
The Stockholm Spoken Word Festival of 2000 had as its theme "Freedom of Speech." A praiseworthy initiative, certainly, but the strange thing was how noticeably absent that very theme was from the works of the participants. Of course, the festival organizers couldn't completely control the content of the writers (that would have been particularly paradoxical in this context), and instead we were treated to everything from raw, subjective sexual depictions (Mara Lee), to sharp criticism of English Diana-morbidity (Steven Wells from NME), Karl Blake's misanthropic introspections, Mark Manning's alcohol-fueled fantasies, to two Finland-Swedes' brilliantly psychedelic performances: Joakim Pirinen and M.A. Numminen. Along with a great deal else in a packed and entertaining program at the historic Södra Teatern.
Yes, and then there was Peter Sotos, the man few actually knew but many had heard about. An American from Chicago who plays brutal industrial music with the band Whitehouse and releases works like "Never Forget Death," "Great White Death," and "Buchenwald." Whose books and publications have caused unease and uncertainty among readers and critics for nearly 20 years. Who in the mid-80s was arrested and convicted for obscenity and possession of illegal pornography.
Now he was going to perform right in little Stockholm! Praise to the festival, which found a candidate around whom things really could have stirred up quite a storm. A controversial writer around whose works a debate about freedom of speech could truly have gotten rolling. But... It didn't quite. In fact, it didn't at all. Whether this is because people in general have become more accepting and tolerant of personal literary depictions of one's own and others' perversions, or whether Sotos is simply too marginal, I'll leave unsaid.
Peter Sotos's performance at Södra Teatern surely made one or two visitors jump a little. There he paced back and forth on stage in his long overcoat, nervously and intensely reading small fragments from his various books. Often he interrupted text passages with free speech directly out to the audience. He asked questions, explained, reasoned without for that matter pandering to the audience. After pieces and harangues about how he masturbates to enlarged and copied photos from newspapers depicting abducted children, Sotos took pauses and threw questions out into the air. It felt as if the whole thing was as much a self-examination as a performance. His invitations to the audience, however, were wasted. One or two replied in Swedish, quietly, politely. Not even the young women with colorful braids and feminist uniforms whom I saw flinch with anger on the bench in front of me used their chance to speak out. Their freedom of speech, if you will, when it was now presented by the most unlikely of them all, "the pervert from Chicago."
Suddenly it was all over, almost as quickly as it had begun. The audience applauded obediently, and the fragments Sotos had spat out about abuse, suffering, social sadism, and cruel perversions must have been quickly suppressed by most. Or has the wind perhaps turned? Has time caught up? Are Sotos's depictions of his extreme life already accepted?
Personally, I don't think so. Rather, it was probably a matter of genuine psychological shock for the culture hipsters who claim that Kerouac was "damn radical" when in reality he was a beer-guzzling mama's boy, or who claim that Thåström's lyrics or new rap are poetry. A genuine shock because Sotos's material is not filtered through any kind of ingratiating literary cosmetic. No safety nets. And, literally, no condoms. Just straight into Chicago and America's decayed world of media lies and fragmented human tragedies. Described completely without Bukowski's "humanity" and drunken "empathy" or Selby's literary aspirations. Sotos's world is a crystal-clear but simultaneously distorted dirt-world of hard drugs, HIV, crime, sexual abuse of children, adults—yes, everyone. A world without sexual boundaries and without morality, where a "gloryhole" in an almost pitch-dark gay bar works just as well as quickly emptying oneself into and then beating up a crack whore in Chicago's slums... A world of "Peter Sotos Pornography," as it even says, VDN-pedagogically, on the back of his books.
Those who have read Sotos know his interests well. Some of them I mentioned above. But fewer know of his genuine admiration for Andrea Dworkin, perhaps the most militant American feminist of them all, often called the cunt-licking tank. In fact, Sotos has even often used her texts as masturbation material... Other interests include social anthropology, preferably studied in the porn industry. And so on.
Sotos is in private low-key, intelligent, and extremely well-read. We decided on a little conversation to sort out some concepts that interest us both. Not so that I afterwards could better "condemn" or "forgive" a writer (who doesn't readily call himself a writer) who has crossed so many boundaries that it's almost guaranteed that somewhere there is something that affects one badly, no matter how hardened one thinks oneself. But to see if there was any truth in my suspicion: that behind the bestial outbursts in his books there is a humble and sincere writer who will influence not only literature as such but also the social morality we are used to seeing things through.
- You were convicted in the US for obscenity and possession of illegal pornography. Have you ever encountered something you yourself found repulsive? Something you wouldn't want to touch because it's simply too distasteful?
SOTOS: Yeah, lots. I have normal adverse reactions.
- A few evenings ago we had a wonderful conversation with Mark Manning about "Kaviar und Sekt" [Caviar and Champagne, German term for pornography revolving around feces./ed.]...
SOTOS: I'm not a big fan of it. I don't feel offended, but my stomach reacts to it. I've been in situations where it was required, but that's a whole other story. That was in the moment itself. But no, it's not my thing. It's terrible to look at, isn't it? But that's also why it's sometimes so good. Seeing those wrecks of people... If they are truly unhappy about being there and it's obvious, then I like it. But I don't like what is actually happening. There's a fantastic film called "Deep Throat Debbie." In it, there's a woman who is so totally out of it, so totally depraved, old White Trash... A real whore type... Her husband decides he wants to film the wife as she sucks off black men, one after another. They come in her face, whereupon the husband puts down the camera and goes to her to lick up all the sperm. Everything really revolves around race issues too. She just keeps saying: "Look at this big, black cock...", a real "Size Queen"... It's really repulsive. Outrageous. But I think it's a good film. I love that type of film.
- There is an overwhelming sexualization around us, in all media. Terry Richardson's work with advertising, for example... [Richardson is a controversial fashion and advertising photographer, who more than anyone else has brought visual elements from pornography into the world of fashion and advertising./ed.]
SOTOS: Terry Richardson is a bit problematic, I think. I think he fits perfectly into the advertising world. Those who deal in shocking things. It's nothing more than that. I think it's more about people our age finding it offensive. But the truth is that young people don't find it offensive at all. They don't care at all. I think Richardson and many advertisers exploit that. It's marketing. I don't view it as porn at all. They're just dealing in games, play, trying to push boundaries. Personally, I'm not at all for freedom of speech. I agree with you that it's something that must be earned. That's why I hate the Internet so much. I think there are many things people shouldn't know about. If you have an unusual taste, you have to work for it. It shouldn't be enough just to tap a little on your computer. Because that will close off many other paths. Something I don't appreciate. The pornography I appreciate and write about is illegal because it involves crime. It's not even a question of whether it should be allowed or not... What do you think?
- I can only relate to my own view of porn. I'm not at all interested in the content, the material itself. But as anthropology or psychology, I like it very much. What interests me is not the result but the process, the life when the camera is off. What will happen, and what is already happening, with this overlap between fashion, culture, and porn is that the producers, just like in the porn world, have to come up with new things that continue to attract attention. People get tired after a while. If we look back ten, fifteen years, anal sex wasn't at all common in porn, but now it's almost a must. And where do you go after someone has been gangbanged by 500 men?
SOTOS: 750... And 1000...
- It's probably already been done by now... The only way to move forward is to show something not shown before, for legal reasons or even technical reasons. I thought of those micro-cameras they send into vaginas and rectums... Techno-fiddling... This type of market requires a constant development of the product.
SOTOS: Exactly. What we're talking about is marketing. There's no real aesthetic idea behind it. They just want to push everything to a new level. Not because there's a reason or a creative idea. They need to attract people to the next cassette or the next ten cassettes. That's what it's about. If I were a feminist, which I really am not, I would have to realize that it's not at all about hatred of women. It wasn't that men specifically wanted to see anal sex, bigger tools, facials, etc., but rather that the video producers knew it would sell. People would become shocked. "Have you seen this one...?" I think there are people who really create art there, but they don't call it art. They call it pornography. And I think that holds true vice versa as well. Films like the one about Annabel Chong have less to do with porn than with social anthropology ["Sex – the Annabel Chong story"/ed.].
- Ten years ago, there weren't volume after volume of Lolita series or "Cherrypoppers." It seems like everything is moving closer to the thin line of legality...
SOTOS: I work as a bartender and where I work there's a band that calls themselves The Cherrypoppin' Daddies. Terrible band, but an incredible name... It's almost accepted now. And then there's the "Barely legal" series... But they're just profiting from the very idea that there would be something dangerous in the material. But we know there isn't. The girls in the magazines don't look like girls, they look like young women. Normal heterosexuals don't want anything else. These series are just created to stir up a tempest in a teapot.
- You've found your way with writing. Earlier you were also interested in publishing things yourself. What made you choose writing? Was it just completely natural or a concrete choice...?
SOTOS: It wasn't entirely planned. How was it for you?
- I come from a well-read home. Books everywhere. I started investigating things. I think it was the very existence of the books in my vicinity.
SOTOS: I read constantly. I didn't discover until I started writing that it was really something completely different from reading. Something completely different. I read constantly and hadn't really encountered what I wanted to encounter. I think that's something fairly general. So you start writing because of that. After I was arrested, I thought: "Screw this. I'll just live my life and do what I want and keep my mouth shut..." But I realized that writing keeps me clear-headed in my alcoholism and I really need that. It clarifies things. Everything is sucked in and connections are made. It's really fantastic. I really like writing. Writing tells me more than I do for writing.
- It's such an intimate process. You can distance yourself to see yourself more clearly, but still not so distantly that others can partake of it. A cleansing sounds a bit pretentious, but at least you can distance yourself from yourself and no one else needs to see it. It's a good mirror.
SOTOS: I'm always surprised. I can forget what's in the books. I can tell a story at a bar and then it turns out the person already knows it. Or, even worse, someone comes up to me and starts talking about a lot of things that are extremely personal. "How the hell did you know that?" Writing creates a life that almost controls you after a while. It's something very strange that happens with writing. It's only now I'm starting to get used to it. For example, the fact that I'm here with you now... That's a result of the writing.
- You could notice this already during the early periods with PURE [Sotos's infamous newspaper project in the 80s./ed.]. You've mentioned that you suddenly started getting a lot of interesting material.
SOTOS: Absolutely. It's strange how these things are created. You think you're creating something, but in reality it's creating you. After I was published, my access to interesting material increased a hundredfold.
- Are there any contemporary writers you like?
SOTOS: I like Dennis Cooper but I have problems with fictional characters. It's stupid, but that's how it is. I simply don't like it when people try to construct things. But otherwise, I can't really think of anyone I like. I love Dworkin. James Havoc is good. He's just collected material in an anthology. There are so many I want to read. And I have a bunch of manuscripts lying with me. I want to read everything. But unfortunately, there isn't time for it. I hardly read any True Crime material nowadays. Actually, I've sold many of my books.
- Have you ever been afraid of becoming a literary person, a culture personality? Now that you're on a respectable publisher?
SOTOS: No, I don't think there's any risk. The question "Do you see yourself as a writer?" is strange. One of the reasons I agree to events like this is that I want to show that I'm not ashamed of my writing. I'm proud of it. I don't think my books will ever sell, ever. So that's nothing to worry about.
- But if you look at literary history, sales figures haven't meant much at all when it comes to significant writers. I think it's more about appreciation and criticism. Do you fear a future where you suddenly get good reviews? Since everything has already become so demoralized around us...? That people stop seeing you as the pervert from Chicago and start seeing you as a serious writer...?
SOTOS: I'm not a serious writer so I don't think that will be a problem. I usually don't read the reviews anymore. I dislike the good ones as much as the bad ones. I know the books honestly depict my life. That's how I live my life. I think my reputation has gone from being someone who goes after children, to gay, to alcoholic. I wouldn't call myself any of those. When people say I can't write, that's a bad review. But I can't. If people say I'm a good writer, well, I don't know. I actually don't know how to write. I view it more as storytelling. I'm not trying to express anything in particular. I'm happy when people I respect like what they read. That means something to me, more than me fitting into some literary niche. You can't find my books that easily either. It says "pornography" on the back of them. That means they should be in the Erotica section. You have to work hard to find them.
- Do you feel that the masturbatory qualities or values in your work diminish or are diminished by being published or by you reading the texts for others?
SOTOS: Sometimes it can be embarrassing to talk to others about what you masturbate to. I throw it back at you. Are you playing Devil's Advocate, or...?
- I think it's diminished. It might not have been an artistic driving force, but I think you've felt a drive to write everything down for various personal reasons. Some of those reasons have been pornographic. But I think material specifically written for these purposes loses value when published. It becomes too distant.
SOTOS: I don't really agree. The fact that the material is published creates a new life for it. In "Tick" there's a story that... I used to hang out at a fairly hardcore gay bar in Chicago. A hard leather place. I met a guy who actually knew my books. It got messy and it was strange in that he knew the books and expected certain things. And he really got them! Things like that happen. If I said it was just masturbatory material, I'd be lying. If someone calls something masturbatory, they mean it can be thrown away, replaced. But I'm aware that the material has a high value for me. It's like an obsession. It's like when someone says a certain film is good on acid... That means nothing. Staring at a wall can be good on acid. It has to have a meaning that is greater, an impact. In Chicago I said to someone from the stage: "Come up yourself and tell us what you masturbate to..." But that's how it can start, that you notice a certain taste direction that develops into something else. A worldview. My own personal psychology.
- People often think it's so terrible with people who are honest in describing their sexuality, their fetishes and interests. At the same time, we are bombarded, through cable TV and satellites, with something I consider much more disturbing. Emotional pornography. I'm thinking of Oprah, Jenny Jones, Ricki Lake and the others. Truly enjoyable for a true sadist! Talk about profiting from people's disturbed emotional lives... Strangely enough, both Jenny Jones and Oprah come from Chicago...
SOTOS: And Jerry Springer...
- And Jerry Springer. Have you ever sat in the audience?
SOTOS: Yeah. William Bennett [from Whitehouse/ed.] and I were actually at a Jerry Springer taping. It was laughable. The theme for that one was "Underage girls who fall for older men"! We cheered and screamed throughout the whole taping. They even came up to me and asked me to take off my coat because I looked like a dirty old man... I've just made a new piece for Whitehouse called "Public." That's also the name of my new book. So I went through a bunch of old videotapes. Fantastic material. I've been asked a couple of times if I wanted to be on a show. Being in the audience is OK, but not on the show itself.
- You'd have to be a proper masochist to handle that...
SOTOS: People get upset by me... If I believed in morality, I would really question all these shows. It's completely incredible that Geraldo [Rivera, legendary host of notoriously bad talkshow./ed.]... Do you know our latest Whitehouse slogan? "What does molesting you mean...?"
- "... Tell me while you dance."
SOTOS: Exactly. How can you ask that on TV, ask someone who's crying? "What does it mean, that he molested you...?" Give me all the details... Incredibly slippery...
- The more polished the surface, the crueler the reality.
SOTOS: Absolutely.
- Everyone says Oprah is in a class of her own, and she really is. She has "liberal PC" branded on her ass, where many of the others are just artists. It doesn't matter how many book clubs you have, it's still about a rude and brutal exploitation.
SOTOS: The Oprah Show has now become The OPRAH Show, where only her opinions count. I don't watch Oprah that often anymore, I have to admit. My two favorites, Geraldo and Lisa, are no longer broadcast. A strange anachronism.
- That was back then...
SOTOS: We're starting to get old... But I'm convinced someone else will come along. We probably won't have to wait long for that.
- I think the explosion of cable TV and satellites will create new needs for the program creators. Just like with Rob Black in the porn film world, with cheaper cameras and a grittier look. I think it will affect studio-based TV as well. It will become cheaper to produce new shows. There will be a need for more extreme material. Talk shows will also become more extreme.
SOTOS: Let's hope so!
- Another interesting phenomenon in the US is barebacking [Intentional unprotected sex in environments where the HIV virus is frequent./ed.]. We're always a couple of years behind in Sweden, but we're slowly catching up. The liberal homosexuals who sit on awareness committees and try to get new funding for education are terrified. Do you think barebacking is a longing for the good old days or a ritualized death drive?
SOTOS: Both. But most of those who do barebacking don't remember the good old days.
- But perhaps in a romanticized way?
SOTOS: I think it has more to do with a longing for some type of intimacy they claim one must have. That's what they're after. Where the need is stronger than the will, and especially where AIDS is involved. Barebacking is when people are driven to that level. The need is greater than reason or will. There's probably a little love there too. There are many of them. They exist. I'm a big admirer. You too?
- Hmmm, I don't have the inclination. But it's interesting. It interested me enough to include it in the magazine [BULT Magazine/ed.]. What fascinates me is the thought processes behind the actions. I think in trendier gay environments it can be seen as a mythologized longing for the good old days. But, as you say, many of them are too young to have experienced it, or they weren't even born. I think they want to experience that very free-spirited, glamorous lifestyle. Where others, those who have passed their prime and lived with HIV paranoia, realize it's something they get off on. A thrill.
SOTOS: I think there's a strong sexual element to it all. On a higher level, sex is only trade. The actual event, the fucking, doesn't matter. Everything lies in the psychology, in the attempts to work with the motivations. But one thing is also certain, and that is that it gets more media attention than there are clubs, for example. There are significantly more "gift-givers" than "bug-chasers." There aren't that many out there who want to receive "the fuck of death." You don't meet many of those. But they exist. There are definitely those who have sexualized death.
- The infection has really made everything more tangible.
SOTOS: That's the least one can say. It's something huge. I'm a big admirer of all this.
- Maybe we should end by talking a little about the festival and your performance? You gave people the chance to say what they wanted: to heckle, comment, ask... The response was pretty restrained. But that doesn't necessarily just have to do with you, though. Swedes have a tendency to be ultra-polite. They simply don't dare raise their voices. Now you've gotten some experience touring with this type of material. What have been the most extreme reactions?
SOTOS: There actually haven't been any extreme reactions. Some guy was drunk and loud in San Francisco. He was thrown out. I wanted him to stay and told him from the stage that I would knock his teeth in. He tried to kiss me. But besides that incident, there's been nothing. But I don't do it to provoke anything either. If someone wants to heckle, that's fine, but I don't want to deal with idiots who think they're at some comedy show. I'm really trying to understand what's happening. I'm interested in their opinions. I don't want it to be like I'm reading the Sermon on the Mount. I don't like that. I want to engage them and see if I can learn something. That might sound stupid. All the books consist of short passages, so I can read them and explain a little and then see what people think. I think that's a good experience.
- What would irritate you the most? Someone coming up to you after a reading, rude and heckling, or someone politely coming up to you and saying they understand how you feel?
SOTOS: They're both irritating. In Whitehouse contexts, there are different groups. After concerts, William gets all the cute women. They're after the sex god. What Philip gets, I don't even want to talk about... And what I get is usually guys who have tortured their dogs and want to show photos of it... I've met some incredible psychopaths. I can handle it and am actually quite grateful. Some of them are real psychopaths and you don't want to be around them. Everyone has their "kink." As soon as you've told about your own, they want to tell about theirs...
- Do you think you'll continue reading for audiences?
SOTOS: No, I don't think so. This was a really good offer and I like being here. But I don't feel particularly relaxed in the situation as such. Maybe once in a while here or there...
- The best is undoubtedly being able to travel around and visit like-minded people.
SOTOS: A lot of this comes from Michael Gira. He told me that when he did it, he could actually meet a lot of people. When he was on tour with Swans, he never got that opportunity. That's how I met him, by the way. We went out after the reading and he was too drunk to drive. Things like that make it worthwhile. But I hate the pretentious aspect of it, I really do. But if people care about the books and I know the material is so hard to find that they really have to make an effort, then I think it's a good thing to do. It's nice to meet those people.
All material is copyright © 1999-2001 Carl Abrahamsson,
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